A Full Transcript from the Press Conference held on December 12, 2010

• Miscellaneous
• 12th March 2011
• YC

Professor Muhammad Yunus's Opening Remarks

Welcome. To all members of the media, I extend my good wishes to you.

In the past few days, that which has been published in significant parts of the Bangladeshi media has been the cause of deep sadness in me. I have come here to express that sadness to you. I feel that, like me, many of my fellow citizens have been similarly hurt.

The charge leveled in the microfinance documentary shown on Norwegian television NRK has been completely misconstrued to show misappropriation of wealth and corruption on my part by this part of the media. In the documentary shown on NRK, it was argued that by transferring funds from one organization to another, Grameen Bank broke the agreement under which such grants were provided. There was never any mention of misappropriation or corruption.

In the Bangladeshi media, this has been misinterpreted and transformed, with the result that numerous false charges of "misappropriation", "fund seizure", "make him take the stand", etc., have been thrown at me. Grameen Bank's explanation of the matter was provided with the documentary, as was the letter provided by the Norwegian authorities stating their satisfaction over the steps taken by Grameen Bank to bring a resolution to the matter. But those who have distorted this news, they did not mention these documents anywhere in their articles published. After this sort of false news broke out across the country, we have again provided an explanation highlighting the truth of the matter.

 

The disagreement between NORAD and us was an honest disagreement. There was a disagreement between the two of us about modality. Other donors did not raise any objections with us about our modality. However, NORAD did. We decided to reach a settlement over these objections so that our good relations with NORAD would not be broken. Bangladesh Bank at a later date gave their opinion that since NORAD's funds were returned to Grameen Bank, the funds provided by SIDA should also be returned to Grameen Bank. We decided that not only SIDA's but also all donor funds should be returned to Grameen Bank. By doing so, there wouldn't be any grounds for further dispute about this transfer of funds.

The Norwegian Government conducted a new investigation into this matter and in its report, and along with the statement from the Honorable Minister for International Development, again stated that 12 years ago this matter was settled with Grameen Bank to their satisfaction. Their report stated that there was no issue of misappropriation or corruption in this dispute. They, in the attachments to their report, state that: Grameen Bank "is perhaps the single most successful development project in the world". That section of our media, which brought forth such false and misleading charges to their readers and viewers, later once the charges had been proved false, did not feel the need to publish the truth. Indeed, many did not even feel the need to publish the rejoinder issued by the Indian High Commission to the statements falsely attributed to the Indian Prime Minister.

I have been extremely hurt by how the media has handled this issue. I have come here before you because I feel the need to express my sadness over this entire episode.

Grameen Bank's explanation and the Norwegian Government's statement has been provided to the media; today we are again distributing these documents to you again.

I want to, through you, reassure all my fellow citizens that Grameen Bank is an honest organization. We are always vigilant against corruption spreading into Grameen Bank. Grameen Bank has established itself as an organization that the nation can be proud of; to preserve and remain in that exalted position is the solemn duty of all employees of Grameen Bank.

In the past 34 years, I have set up numerous organizations. There is a lot of misunderstanding about my financial relationship with all of these organizations. Indeed, even yesterday in a TV channel it was said that NORAD's fund was transferred to Grameen Kalyan, an organization owned by Dr. Muhammad Yunus. That Grameen Kalyan is a not-for-profit organization, that it was set up at the behest of the Board of Directors of Grameen Bank, that it has no owners; all of these facts are clearly expressed in our report. The Danish journalist, in his documentary, did not mention that Grameen Kalyan was an organization owned by me. After all this, how was it possible that the TV channel reported that I own Grameen Kalyan? The reasons for feeling hurt are created in this way.

I would like to make it absolutely clear in front of all that, other than from Grameen Bank, I do not receive any financial benefit, housing, transportation or subsidy from any of the organizations that I have created. As an employee of Grameen Bank, I receive a salary and other benefits from the Bank. I do not own any organization in the Grameen family. I do not own a single share in Grameen Bank or in any of the organizations in the Grameen family. Because I do not own shares in Grameen Bank, as Managing Director even though I am a Board member, I do not have voting rights. I am a non-voting member.

The inspiration behind every organization set up was to solve a social or economic problem of the country. At no point did it ever enter my mind to reap financial benefit from these organizations, and I have never received financial benefit from any of these organizations. Indeed, I have always refused the honorarium offered to Board members for attending Board meetings.

Poverty is our number-one national problem. To solve this problem, all sections of the nation are working in their different way. We have pledged ourselves to achieving the Millennium Development Goals. By being successful in achieving the Goals, Bangladesh has attracted the attention of the entire world.

Grameen Bank is an organization that is engaged in removing poverty. So that Grameen Bank is successful in this goal, we are requesting the cooperation of the media. All of us have to work together. The media can point out our failings and shortcomings - not in a negative attitude but in a positive way. This cooperation will increase our enthusiasm and effectiveness many times over. It will cause us to achieve our goals much faster.

We hope that we will get this cooperation from you. With this hope, we will start today's press conference.

Questions and Answers

Professor Yunus: My opening remarks end here. We would like to show you what is included in the packet that has been provided to you. We would like to request that all of you take a look at this document. We publish this document every month, and you will find it on our website. It is called "Grameen Bank at a Glance". In this document you will be able to find all kinds of information about Grameen Bank; it is a very interesting document. If you do not have the time to read it, perhaps you have children who go to school or college, you can give it to them; they will be able to learn a lot of interesting information from this document.

If you read this document, it will clear up many of your misconceptions. It is a very important document of ours, and we publish it very regularly. It contains detailed information about all of the work that we do. And all of the information is provided in brief and summarized points, so it will not be difficult for you to understand it. We publish this regularly and it contains all the latest information about Grameen Bank. If you provide us with your address, we will even mail it to you regularly if you are interested.

The second document that we want to call your attention to is called "Grameen Bank's Interest Rate". We have been publishing this for many years. This publication contains information on our interest rates that we charge our borrowers.

The rest of the documents provided are very brief, so we will not take any more time in going through them. The two documents that we have highlighted to you are very important documents published related to Grameen Bank, and if you take the time to go through them, you will learn a lot about Grameen Bank.

At this point, I would like to hand over to my colleague, Nurjahan Begum. She will moderate this press conference.

Nurjahan Begum: My thanks to Professor Yunus for his words. I would like to welcome all of you again to this press conference. You have all gathered here today at our call and we appreciate your effort to be here. Before the start of this question-and-answer session, I would like to reiterate a few points. This press conference will continue for one-and-a-half hours; and we will conclude this press conference within that time frame. And so that we are able to field questions from all of the news organizations present here today, we request that each news organization limit talk to just one question. After the first round of questions is over, if there is time for a second round, we will then field further questions. When you put your question to us, please mention your name and the organization that you have come from.

BBC: It was written in your statement that there was a financial transfer from one organization to another. Do you think that this has broken what is known as "financial discipline"? What is your opinion?

Professor Yunus: No, this was done according to all rules and regulations. The Board took this decision, and there was no objection from donors. The only donor organization that raised an objection later was NORAD. And in the end we reached a compromise with them and the matter was settled. And all concerned authorities know of this matter. Bangladesh Bank knows this, our Board knows this. And there was nothing objectionable to the matter.

Question: The main issue was that the funds were transferred from one organization to another.

Professor Yunus: This happened with the intention of implementing the purpose with which the funds were provided. There was no other intention or purpose behind the transfer of the funds.

ATN News: The funds were transferred from GB to GK in 1996; and yet after two years, the funds were returned to GB. Can we hold this as an example of "Best Practice"? Or is this an exception?

Md. Shahjahan: Are you asking whether this is a different financial...

ATN News: I am asking whether what had occurred, you had transferred money, and yet within two years you had returned the money back. Is this an example of best practice or was this an exception?

Md. Shahjahan: No, this was not an exception.

ATN News: If Sir would answer the question...

Professor Yunus: He is the financial expert, so he will be able to answer this question. I am not a financial expert, so I will not be able to answer this question properly.

Md. Shahjahan: This was not an exception. It was the generally followed principle. The fund was transferred for the best use of the funds, this is done everywhere in the world. And because this practice is extant elsewhere in the world, Bangladesh Bank and our auditors did not raise any objection over this transfer. Nor did any of the donor organizations raise any objection other than NORAD. To protect our good relationship with them, rather than argue over the matter, we reached a settlement over this issue.

ATN News: But if you say that this was a best practice, then why has this issue arisen after 12 year?

Professor Yunus: We cannot say why this has come up again after so many years. We can only say what we have done about this issue.

Desh TV: Sir, this documentary shown on a foreign channel has brought a stain on the image of Grameen Bank. And since the image of Grameen Bank is tied to the image of Bangladesh, are you going to take legal action against those who are behind is documentary? And if not, why?

Professor Yunus: I have already said in my opening remarks that I want cooperation with all; I do not want any fight with anyone. There are many problems in the country, and we will not be able to find solutions to these problems by fighting with each other. Today we are spending so much time here, because it was needed for us to be here so we are taking up so much of your valuable time. All of us have to work together. We have so much problems with poverty, health, education; let us concentrate on finding solutions to these problems. Let us forget what has happened in the past and move forward. This is what I mentioned in my statement. I have not blamed any of you, nor do I harbor any ill feelings towards any of you. It hurt me what newspapers wrote about me and Grameen Bank. I am only expressing my hurt feelings to you.

Question: Do you think that the transfer of funds from one organization to another which you have admitted to, is relevant or in keeping with the dignity and honour of a Nobel Laureate?

Professor Yunus: Yes, I do think that it is.

Radio Today: A few days after the story broke here in Bangladesh, the Prime Minister made a number of comments about you, Grameen Bank and microfinance. What is your response to this?

Professor Yunus: I do not want to make any comments on this. She made those comments out of her consideration. I will stop my comments here.

Question: One of the reasons given for the transfer of NORAD money was that Grameen Bank's tax exemption could be taken away, and so the funds were transferred. Are you against paying tax?

Professor Yunus: I am not against paying tax. Nor did the question of tax evasion ever arise. Every organization tries to reduce its costs, and the Government has a number of rules about this: if you do this, then your tax liability will be reduced. There is no question of tax evasion here. The Government has provided organizations with opportunities; we have made use of these opportunities with aim of benefitting our shareholders who are the rural poor women of Bangladesh.

[Indiscernible question from same reporter]

No, no, no. My duty is to reduce cost, and increase income. This is my duty as Managing Director. And I am doing this by making use of all the opportunities provided for by the Government.

Daily Shomokal: It was mentioned in the documentary that Tom Heinemann tried to contact you for six months with no positive result. Journalists here in Bangladesh also face this problem. We are not able to get information whenever we need it. Recently the Government introduced the Right to Information Act which charges all organizations to have someone as the contact person with whom concerned persons can contact for information. Will you be appointing someone who will be the contact person for Grameen Bank?

Professor Yunus: I recognize that this was a shortcoming on our part. Everyone tries to contact me, but I am very busy and therefore unavailable for much of the time. But now we can let you know that we have appointed a contact person, her name is Jannat-e-Qaunine, is she here? Jannat, if you would step forward. She will be responsible for this. In the future, she will provide you with information about what we do. This was a shortcoming on our part and we recognize this.

And about him [Tom Heinemann], I could not contact him because of the same reason; I was very busy at the time. And I am travelling a lot of the time, so I was not able to meet him. But even though I was not able to meet with him, we provided him all the relevant documents about this issue; and people from our side met and spoke with him, it's just that I was not able to meet him.

Question: Grameen Telecom is involved in Grameenphone. So do you think that Telenor is somehow involved in any of this? And my other question is, do you think that this is because of your involvement in politics?

Professor Yunus: No, I do not think that this is due to any of the two points that you raised. Sometimes we tend to think of conspiracy to explain what is happening. I do not think that any of these two explanations are correct.

Daily Amader Shomoy: Grameen Bank has created a number of companies over the years. My question is, has Grameen Bank's wealth, assets or goodwill been used for the creation of these companies? Secondly, Grameen Bank has a lot of sister companies which are extremely profitable. Will you use the profit from these companies to reduce the interest rate charged to the borrowers of Grameen Bank? You have been given a number of awards, both national and international. You have even won the Nobel Peace Prize, which is a source of pride for us. We know what Rabindronath Thakur and Amatya Sen did with their prize money from the Nobel Prize. Can you please inform us what you have done with the prize money from the Nobel Peace Prize? Or if nothing has been done as of yet, can you give us an indication as to what may happen with this money?

Professor Yunus: It is true that I have set up a lot of companies. Of these, four companies are directly connected with the Bank. A few of these are Grameen Kalyan, Grameen Krishi (Agricultural) Foundation, Grameen Motsho (Fisheries) Foundation and Grameen Fund. Of the rest, there is no relationship with Grameen Bank other than the use of the Grameen name. You can ask then why do they use the name of Grameen? Yes, they have used the name. Whenever I set up a company, I gave them the use of the Grameen name. There is no problem with this, nor does it matter to anyone.

The issue with these companies is that they are not-for-profit companies. There is no profit involved, and no one can take away the profit from the company. This has been done for a specific purpose. So if you go through the list in the book ["Grameen Bank at a Glance"], you will be able to find out how all profits have been spent. So whenever these companies make profits, how these profits are used, and for what purpose, that is also explained in the book. So for example, if it is Grameen Shakti, then the profits will be used for expanding the Solar Home System program; if it is Grameen Krishi Foundation, then the profits will be used in agriculture; and if it is some other company, it will be used in another way. These are not-for-profit companies; the profits earned by these companies are not withdrawn from them.

[The Nobel Peace Prize money has been earmarked for the Grameen Eye Care Hospital. It has not been, nor will it be, for Professor Yunus's personal use.]

Bangla Vision: When this matter broke in the media here in Bangladesh, at that time the Awami League and the PM in particular had said that there will be an investigation and if anyone is found to be guilty, then appropriate measures will be taken. How do you see this statement or comment?

Professor Yunus: I have already welcomed the call for an investigation, and I do so again here.

Financial Express: You have expressed your sadness over the way this issue has been handled; and it is quite natural to feel hurt if these accusations are not true. So have you ever thought of starting your own newspaper?

Professor Yunus: [laughter] Grameen Newspaper! [More laughter] No, I do not want to go there. But I have said from time to time, since you brought up the question, that the media should be run as a social business. It should not be run for the profit of anyone. If it is run as a social business, then people can express their own thoughts otherwise, people are busy express the opinion of the owners. So I say that the media is an appropriate sector for operating under social business principles. It should not operate for the profit of anyone, but for the benefit of everyone.

Question: Then can we take it that there will be a "Grameen Patrika"?

Professor Yunus: Many have expressed their desire to me. From India, I have received requests for setting up a TV station as a social business; from America, I have been asked to work with them to set up a global news network as a social business. This network will not operate under for-profit basis, but rather on social business principles. And some of these requests are very serious requests, especially the one from India. I recently had meetings with Shekhar Kapur, and a big desire of his is to set up a media company along social business principles. So people have expressed similar wishes like you and hopefully something may come out of it.

All India Radio: In the recent past few months, there has been a lot of criticism of microcredit - that it is actually creating a cycle of debt, that it is not removing people from poverty. What is your is your opinion and what do you feel about this criticism?

Professor Yunus: This problem with microcredit in India has been a topic for discussion and argument, and I had a big debate at Clinton Global Initiative with Vikram Akula over this very topic. My main point there was that microcredit was created for the benefit of the poor; it was not created to extract profits from them. Our desire was to provide these people with small loans so that they can create a small business to generate income for themselves; for self-employment, to make them independent.

This concept has slowly become the victim of misuse and abuse by many people. Microcredit is being used to make profits off the poor. SKS is one of the major players in the commercialization of microcredit. And this is the reason for my argument with SKS. The person who started SKS, Vikram Akula, as a student he came to me and he was very impressed by what he saw here and he decided that he would do in imitation what Grameen Bank was trying to do in Bangladesh. At that time he was a student at Chicago. So in between his studies, he started setting up a program in India and once he completed his studies, he started his microcredit NGO. He later turned it into a for-profit company and then went for an IPO. So I told him that this is a completely detour, this is what you can describe as a "mission drift".

There are many such for-profit microcredit organizations in India, especially in Andhra Pradesh where the problem is severe. And for their fault, their wrong doing, it is not fair to blame microcredit. Microcredit should not operate on a for-profit basis. In microcredit, it is necessary to be sympathetic to those whom you are working for, to build a personal relationship with these people, to help them in times of disaster, etc., but those who are in it to earn profits, going for IPO, where people personally earn millions of dollars, they no longer are paying heed to the real purpose of microcredit. Which is why I say that what is happening in India, it is happening because of the situation particular to India. The Indian Government has asked for suggestions from us, high-ranking officials have come to see us for advice. And I gave them the following three pieces of advice.

1. What I told them was that they should follow the example of Bangladesh. What we always do is to mobilize deposits from the public. Vikram Akula says that he does not have money, and he would not be able to raise funds for lending without going for an IPO. I say that Grameen Bank does not need to borrow money from anyone, and the Bank is operational throughout the country; we have never faced problems raising money. Why is this? This is because Grameen Bank is able to accept deposits. Indian MFIs should request the Indian Government to allow them to accept deposits, India has a lot more money than Bangladesh, and so it is possible to mobilize far more than we can here.

2. The second thing that we say is to create an organization for the wholesale of microcredit funds like the PKSF (Polli Karmo Shohaiok Foundation) here in Bangladesh. Most of the MFI NGOs in Bangladesh get their funding by borrowing from PKSF. So there is an organized source of funding here in Bangladesh.

3. The third suggestion that we made, which we have also implemented here, is to set up what is known as a Microcredit Regulatory Authority. We have already implemented this here, after a number of years of lobbying the Government here, so that microcredit in Bangladesh is properly monitored and regulated. And MRA is now able to monitor and regulate the microcredit sector here in Bangladesh.

These are the three points I gave to them on how to get their microcredit sector in order.

Question: Grameen Bank has been operational for the last 34 years and there have been 8.3 million borrowers. After the documentary aired on NRK, it has spread out across the world. Do you think that this will affect the work of Grameen Bank?

Professor Yunus: I told someone the other day that before you write something about a bank, you should think about what you write, take some time to reflect and have some patience because it can create a certain reaction in the outside world. It can also be the cause of a reaction within Bangladesh, because we are a bank. It is practiced all over the world that one should not write or express things that will destabilize a bank, or create panic among the depositors.
This is because if ever a bank is destabilized, then people will withdraw their deposits from that bank for fear of losing their money. So any kind of bad news about a bank can cause people to start to withdraw their money from that bank. So if people start to withdraw their money, I mentioned that we have a lot of money, we will not have it in the case that people start to withdraw their deposits. It is our good fortune that this did not happen to us this time.

The other thing that can happen is that those who take loans from us, the poor rural people, they will start to not repaying their loans. They will start to think that if the Bank is closing down, why should we repay? So the Bank can be harmed in these two ways. This is why people have to be careful when writing or making statements about the Bank, because of the need to prevent negative reactions.

Question: Has Grameen Bank or any of its sister companies donated any money to the Clinton Foundation? How much do you spend on travelling around the world?

Professor Yunus: We have not donated any money to the Clinton Foundation; I do not know why you have asked me this question. If you have heard anywhere that we have done so, then it is false information.

And about your other question, I do not have to spend any money travelling to spread my thoughts and ideas around the world. Rather, they provide for all the costs of my travelling. They are generous enough to do this because they are interested to hear what I have to say, and in most of the cases they have been requesting me to come and visit them for a long time. They are always ready to bear all the costs.

Daily Star: Do you think that this event is due to a conspiracy? Because there have been disagreements between you and Telenor, so do you think that Telenor may be behind this entire episode?

Professor Yunus: I do not think that this is due to any conspiracy, but there may be people who are happy to see this happening, but there is no conspiracy as far as I can understand.

Kaler Kontho: From 2000, you went past 60 years of age. Besides the Managing Director of Grameen Bank, you are also the Chairperson of 18 Grameen companies. How much longer do you think that you will be able to fulfill your duties in these positions? And as you are already past the legal age of retirement, when do you plan to retire? And what will happen once you retire? How will all these companies be managed?

Professor Yunus: How long I will remain as the Managing Director of Grameen Bank depends entirely on how long the Board wants me to fulfill that duty. They will decide. And there are members of the Board who are Governmental officials. The Chairperson is a senior civil servant. The other two governmental members are Secretaries to the Government, so the government is fully aware of the situation.

Prothom Alo: The Government has set a legal cap on the interest rate chargeable for microcredit. How does this rate compare to Grameen Bank's rate?

Professor Yunus: It is not the government who has set the cap, but rather the MRA here in Bangladesh. They have set a legal cap, which all MFIs have to follow. They set the cap at 27%. Our highest interest rate is 20%, so we are 7% below the legal cap. 20% is our highest rate. We have four separate rates. For the general loan, the rate is 20%; for the housing loan, the rate is 8%; for the educational loan, the rate is 5%. And we also provide loans to beggars. We have about 100,000 borrowers. For them, the interest rate is 0%. So we are safely below the cap set by the MRA.

Question: After this news broke, our two political platforms have been speaking with two different voices and opinions; if you could give us your thoughts or opinion about this.

Professor Yunus: About this there is nothing for me to say. All I have to say is that I have been hurt about what has happened, and so have a lot of our fellow citizens. There are those who have been hurt about this, likewise there are those who have not. These are the different voices you can hear. It is not about political parties.

Question: We know that Grameenphone is one of the organizations that are tied to Grameen Bank. Will you tell us how much Grameen has invested into Grameenphone? Will you also tell us how much profit Grameen has received from Grameenphone?

Professor Yunus: Grameen Bank itself is not directly tied to Grameenphone. Grameen Telecom is an independent organization and it is Grameen Telecom that has invested into Grameenphone. Grameen Telecom invested $ 11 million into Grameenphone when it was originally set up. It received this money as a loan from Soros Enterprise. Later when one of the shareholders decided to sell their shares and leave, we said that every one of the remaining partners in the company should buy the shares proportionately and so Grameen Telecom invested a further Taka 330 million into Grameephone and received the equivalent shares. And as for how much Grameen Telecom has received as dividend from Grameenphone, there is nothing to hide here, it is regularly published, you will be able to find out from Grameenphone publications into the matter.

Question: My question is whether you sent a rejoinder to the documentary aired in NRK? And if you have, can you provide us with a copy of the rejoinder?

Professor Yunus: No, I have not sent a rejoinder to the documentary aired on NRK.

[Related question from ATN News]: Why not?

Professor Yunus: I did not think I should have done so at that time. I will do so with time. It is also that it was in Norwegian, and I have not yet seen the full translation of the NRK documentary, so I am not aware of what is exactly said in it.

[Related question]: The Norwegian documentary is quite innocent; it is here that the media has turned it into something entirely else all together.

Professor Yunus: Yes, it is totally turned around. As far as I am aware, NRK documentary did not make charges of "misappropriation" or other kinds of charges that was seen here. This is the reason for my sadness, that the entire episode here in Bangladesh was misconstrued, it was completely fabricated. They may have raised some objections, which we can and will deal with. They did not suggest "misappropriation". They brought an old issue to light which had been resolved back then. This had been resolved 12 years ago, and they know it, but they are not mentioning it.

Question: Besides the issue of the fund transfer, their main charge is that microcredit is ineffective. In the documentary, they show people who have taken micro-loans, and now have to sell their land, houses, etc., to pay back their loans. The other thing is about the Polli-phone. You said in your Nobel speech that there are about 150,000 Polli-phones. But in reality there are no Polli-phones. What is your opinion about this?

Professor Yunus: What you are trying to say is that the Polli-phone business model has become obsolete. When you say that Polli-phone no longer exists, this is not accurate. There are 383,000 Telephone Ladies. When the Polli-phone program was started, the thinking was that whoever does not have a phone; they would be able to come and use the Polli-phone.

But now just about everyone in the country has a phone, and so the usage of Polli-phone has gone down significantly. So the income of a Phone Lady has reduced with the reduced usage of her phone. But she has also moved with the times. She has gone into other businesses to boost her income.

What we are now thinking is now that there are these many Polli-phone connections, how can we make her use the Internet, so that she is able to offer more services to her customers? This would have been easily achievable if Broadband Internet was available. We can do it, but it will take time. But the reason for the Polli-phone to exist - to provide phone connectivity to people - that paradigm has moved on and so has Polli-phone.

Question: Bangladesh is still a poor country. Which do you think is the way forward for Bangladesh, large-scale investment or small investments on a vast level? Which do you place priority on?

Professor Yunus: I trying to do both. I give priority to both. In terms of large-scale investments, all of these large investments are set up as social businesses. And we partner with large international companies who are the leaders in their sectors. So, for example, some of our social businesses are Grameen Danone, Grameen Veolia, Grameen Uniqlo and Grameen Adidas. These are all social businesses. All the profits will remain in the business, so that none can say that the profits are being repatriated. There is a social goal behind each of these businesses.

The role of microcredit will not decrease. For example, in America, because it did not have micro-loans in the past, there is something called "payday loans". This is a trillion-dollar business there. The interest rates on such loans start at 50% and can go up to 1500%. So over there, we have set up Grameen America, which now has four branches in New York. These four branches are set up in different areas, and they have about 5000 members. And on average the size of the loans is only $1500. These people are eager to receive loans of such small size. This makes me hopeful that the future of microcredit is very bright. It will spread to other areas of the world where it does not exist today. We should strengthen microcredit further.

But this does not mean that we should neglect other areas. We should pay attention to health, education, investment, energy, IT, all of these sectors are vital to Bangladesh; we should not neglect any sector. We all have to work in every sector. And this is why I keep saying that we should not spend our time on things that were settled 12 years ago, we should move forward. We have a lot of opportunities for improvement in this country. The future of Bangladesh is very bright; we have to remember this point. We have to work together to achieve big results.

We started working with micro-loans 34 years ago. At that time, if we gave loans of Taka 200 or 500, they would be happy. However, times have changed. Today our starting loan is at Taka 10,000. We have over 2500 branches in this country. Of these, there are over 1100 branches (each branch has about 5000 members) where the borrowers have deposits which amount to 85% to over 100% of their outstanding loans. We have more than 500 branches where the borrowers have deposits at the branch in excess of their loans. Sometimes I point out jokingly as to who is the real borrower, Grameen Bank or its borrowers? Our borrowers have vastly improved their situation by dint of their own efforts.

Many of their children are now professionals. Some of them may be among you today as reporters or photographers. There are university professors who are the children of Grameen borrowers. They come from families that are illiterate. From the very beginning we emphasized education for the children of our borrowers. As a result, there are many such children who are today in college and universities all across the country. If there is a problem paying for college or university, then we will provide educational loans to them. We now have 50,000 such children on our Educational loans program. These children are our next great hope.

They are the second generation of Grameen Bank members. We tell them all the time that they should pledge to themselves that they shall never ask for a job from anyone. Rather they will be the ones who will provide jobs to others. We tell them that their mother is an owner of a big bank, which has a lot of money. They can take advantage of this resource. We tell him or her that take money from us and try to do something with, as each person is able to. We now have a lot of such young men and women who have taken loans from us to invest in starting their small businesses. So our second frontier is now expanding, slowly but surely.

For the beggars program, we tell them that since they travel from neighborhood to neighborhood begging, why not take something to sell as well. It can be anything from puffed rice, biscuits or toys for children; they can beg and sell as well, depending on the situation. We will provide them with the money. Today we have over 100,000 such beggars on this program and of this, about 20,000 beggars have given up begging altogether. They have done so well through business, so why should they beg? We also tell them that they do not need to worry about repayment, they can pay as and when they are able to, because there is no interest on this loan. Many of these borrowers are now on a second, third, even fourth loan.

We always try our best to improve the situation of our borrowers. We never say that we are successful in everything that we do. And this is why we do not dispute that fact that there are people who are suffering - we know this. In her family, she is the only one who may be trying, and everyone else may be working against her; her husband may seize the money from her and use it for something else or squander it. So she faces a lot of difficulties and problems and it is not guaranteed that everyone will be able to do well.

Question: Has Bangladesh Bank come to investigate this matter? And did Bangladesh Bank know of the settlement to this issue 12 years ago?

Professor Yunus: If you take a look at my initial statement from earlier today, you will see that Bangladesh Bank knew of this matter and had given us their opinion on it. They said that since we returned the NORAD money, we should return the SIDA money as well; we acted on this by returning all donor money. It is not a case that they did not know what was going on, they knew everything; they gave us advice and opinion on this matter.

And as for the call for investigation, I have already welcomed it. They are our regulatory authority, they are always going through our papers and documents; they regularly inspect the branches at the field level, so this is nothing new for us. They regularly question us on things, and we give our response. How the investigation will take place is not something that I can comment on, but I welcome any investigation into the matter.

Bhorer Daak: After winning the Nobel Peace Prize, you have said repeatedly that you will send Poverty to the museums. Now after 34 years, the poor are now also the indebted poor. Many have even committed suicide. Were you serious when you made the comments about sending poverty to the museum?

Professor Yunus: Yes, I was and am absolutely serious. It is my dream, my goal and vision. We can use all the resources at our disposal, be it IT, large-scale investment, small micro-loans, technology - whatever it is, we should all work to drive poverty in Bangladesh into the museum. We should all pledge to make this a reality. If we do not pledge ourselves to something, if we do not have big dreams and goals, then how will we make progress?

The question now is, how soon can we make this dream a reality? I reply that we can make this a reality by 2030. Why do I say this? The reason is because we have pledged ourselves to achieving the Millennium Developmental Goals by the year 2015. And Bangladesh is one of the few countries on track to reach that goal, and has thus earned the praise of the world as a result. The very first goal of the MDGs is to halve poverty by the year 2015. So I say if we are able to halve poverty in 15 years, then why can we not remove poverty entirely in another 15 years? So I always say that we should be able to remove poverty by 2030. If we are able to achieve this worthy goal, it will be because of the efforts of us all working together towards this goal.

Question: Do you think that there were any dishonest motives behind the airing of the documentary on NRK? And if there was dishonest motivation behind it, why will you not take appropriate measures? I am asking you this as a citizen of Bangladesh.

Professor Yunus: I understand your sentiments. The first thing that we have to know is, what sort of actions will satisfy us. Will it be a legal action, or an appeal to someone or to the population; we should not make a hasty decision about this. Let's let the situation calm down a little bit, and then we can have discussions with them. This has not been laid to rest and it is still ongoing. Whatever we decide to do, we will do after considering all of our options carefully.

Question: Do you think that this issue will damage microcredit?

Professor Yunus: I have said in one of my previous answers, that such issues can harm a bank in two ways. Firstly, depositors will rush to withdrawn their money, and those who have taken loans, they will not repay because they will feel that if the bank will no longer exist, then why should they repay? So the damage can come from two sides. This is why I always request the media to cooperate with us so that this sort of situation does not come about.

Dainik Aporadh Kontho: If borrower takes a loan from you and for whatever reason is not able to repay, then what are the programs do you have to help that person?

Professor Yunus: For such a situation, we have a number of programs. We feel that the poor will face many, many problems. So we do not give loans and expect that the poor will be able to repay without any problems. We always have the mindset that our borrowers will face some difficulty in repaying the loans. And we are prepared for this.

If a borrower faces problems in repayment, then that borrower can reduce the amount of the installments that they make to us. In this way, the loan term of the loan is extended. This does not harm us, and it helps our borrowers to repay. It does mean that they will pay more interest to us, but it is a way to help them to repay their loans to us. If the person is absolutely not able to repay, then we will look at other options.

Desh TV: Those who are encouraging this issue behind the scenes, what do you have to say to them?

Professor Yunus: To them I would say, let us all work together rather than wasting time and energy fighting with each other. If we work together, that which might otherwise take 10 years can get done in only 1 year. There is nothing to be gained by fighting with each other.

Kaler Kontho: We know that Grameen Bank has had tax exemption ever since it has been established. And the current extension of this exemption will expire this 31st of December. The Bank has already sent in papers for renewal of this tax exemption. Why is it that you want this sort of benefit for Grameen Bank? Do you not think that by paying tax to the government, they can carry out programs for the welfare of the people?

Professor Yunus: If Grameen Bank gets this tax exemption, who will benefit from it? Me? No, it is the owners, the poor rural women of Bangladesh who will benefit by getting a bigger dividend. You are saying that the people of the country will not benefit through Grameen Bank not paying taxes; I ask you, who are the people of the country? The rich people, or the poor people? These poor people who are our borrowers, they will benefit by getting a bigger dividend payout.

In principle, we have no problem in paying taxes. We explained to the government that if you tax us, yet do not tax the NGOs who provide microcredit, then it not be a consistent policy. So the government gave us the proposal that rather than paying taxes, set aside the money for a disaster-relief fund and use the money at times of disaster to bring relief and rehabilitation to the poor. We found the proposal to be an excellent one; we promptly agreed. Under this agreement, we were not allowed to pay out dividends. But whenever we were allowed to pay dividends, we have paid it to our borrowers. Last year we paid 30% cash in dividends. In 2006, we were able to pay 100% cash dividend.

Question: Sir, when will you retire?

Professor Yunus: This will be decided by the Board. I have no say over this.

Question: Will the companies that you have set up, will the ownership of these companies shift to your family after you leave?

Professor Yunus: There are laws that govern these things. Nothing unlawful will occur. These are all not-for-profit companies and there are laws that dictate what will happen. Do you think that I will take all these companies for my own? If after all of these years, I have to say that I am not doing this for my personal gain, then I have to say that I feel helpless. If I was motivated by personal gain, I could have been doing something else altogether more profitable. I could have left and gone into other far more profitable areas.

Bdnews24.com: NORAD said that NOK 170 million was returned to Grameen Bank. But later, it has been revealed that the real figure for NORADs' share was actually NOK 274 million. What do you have to say about this?

Professor Yunus: Is this being said by the TV channel or the journalist? But what has the Minister himself said? The Minister has said that all issues have been resolved, and there are no more outstanding issues remaining. We have all the documents, which show where the money went and how it was used. And they know everything about it.

Question: Will you go into politics again?

Professor Yunus: No, I did once, and I will not go into it again.

ATN News: Was the transfer of money an example of "best practice"?

Professor Yunus: Yes, in my mind it was a best practice. Even in best practice, there can be instances of honest disagreements. So when NORAD made an objection, we reached a settlement. When Bangladesh Bank made the opinion that we should have the SIDA money returned, we decided to return all donor money to Grameen Bank. We did what we needed to do to bring a settlement to all arguments - is this not an example of best practice?

Question: I have spoken with Tom Heinemann, and he has said to me that you had requested all involved to keep this quiet. Is this true?

Professor Yunus: Did he say this on paper? Or did he make it up?
[Reporter response is not discernable]
Professor Yunus: There is nothing secret about any of this. When I was informing everyone involved in this issue at the time, about what was happening, when I informed Bangladesh Bank about everything and took their advice and opinion into the matter, there was no question of anyone trying to keep this a secret.

Question: In 2006, after the Nobel Peace Prize, you had pressed Telenor about transferring ownership to Grameen Telecom. Do you still press this point to them? Should Grameenphone be a fully Bangladeshi company?

Professor Yunus: This happened when I was invited by them to a reception, after the Prize, and there I in my speech I mentioned that Grameephone should be a fully Bangladeshi company. I still mention it from time to time. But there is nothing that I can do legally about it. But our relationship is one of friendship, and there is not tension over this matter.

The Press Conference comes to an end here.